Sunday School | Doctrine of Salvation - Preservation of the Saints (Can We Lose Out Salvation?)

Alright. I think, I hope, likely to be the case that today will be the final day in which I'm presenting to you guys the Ark of Tulip. Total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. And then next week we'll start doing questions and answers. So thank you for your patience. If you're like, yeah, but I want to understand this, then I would love to interact with you. Or not even just questions, but we want to hear your pushback. I'd love to interact with you. I do believe that the paradigm I'm offering you guys is really robust and would survive scrutiny. But you can tell me if you agree after we scrutinize it and you kinda throw some rocks at it.

So today we're gonna finish up our conversation about perseverance of the saints, which I prefer, and some prefer preservation of the saints. The question is, if God in his mercy overrides your depravity and elects you for salvation, calls you to faith, your eyes are open and you see his beauty, and you respond in faith, can you then walk away? Will you walk away? Or are you secure?

Last week we looked at a bunch of scripture that I think makes pretty clear that he will keep you strong to the end. That the way that Jesus phrases it: "My Father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." They were sealed for the day of redemption. Philippians says that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. We can make a strong case for that.

By the way, I forgot. If you have these notes from Eliot last week, you have them. But if you weren't here last week or you didn't get them, then Taylor is gonna pass them out because she's so sweet that way. Did I keep one for myself? No. So there you go. Thanks, Taylor.

We walked through a bunch of scripture that makes that case, but you could reasonably accuse me of cherry picking. On the back of the page I've got a section that says, "Yeah, but what about?" And there's a lot of scripture that perhaps suggests that runs in the opposite direction of the eternal security of a believer. That suggests that maybe you can walk away. Maybe you can run away. So I wanna walk through that with you today.

I do think that this, in particular, is a doctrine that we should steelman, not strawman. And not only is there scripture that suggests that this isn't the case, but we all have life experience that suggests that this isn't the case. Probably everyone in this room knows somebody who, man, you would have bet money that they were a Christian. But today, you don't think maybe that they are.

By the way, if we ran out of these, I didn't print extras, but these are—if you're not on the email, email chsdoctrine@gmail.com and I'll send you the whole packet. We'll give you anything else that we're sending out here, so you can have the digital copy.

And then up here, let's see. Oh yeah, over there. That QR code is where you can submit questions that we'll start talking about next week.

Examining the Alternative View

So, what about this? I'm gonna walk through a bunch of scripture, and I'll give you the references. If you don't have the sheet, you can look it up or jot them down. Because this, strangely, is the P in Tulip that is most likely to be affirmed by somebody who is not a Calvinist. And yet, I think it's the easiest one to deconstruct. I still think it's true, but I think it's complicated.

Here's some things. John 15:6, Jesus says:

If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. — John 15:6

Seems relatively plain that when Jesus says, "if anyone does not remain in me," that perhaps it's possible to not remain in him. And the consequence of that is grave.

Or this, 1 Corinthians 15:

By this gospel you are saved. But if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. — 1 Corinthians 15

Again, pretty clear. If there's a conditional statement of "if" and that condition is not met, then perhaps you won't be saved. Perhaps you have, as Paul says, believed in vain.

Or how about this? 2 Corinthians 13:5:

Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you? Unless of course, you fail the test. — 2 Corinthians 13:5

Is it possible for those who identify with the community of believers who think that they're Christians to not be? And that they might fail the test?

One more and then I'll start to talk about these. Philippians 2...

Paul says, therefore, my dear friends, as you've always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

Now to be honest, that takes a slightly different angle on this. It seems that Philippians doesn't so much suggest that you might lose your salvation, as much as it suggests that it could be a cooperative act. And it's a combination of believing in Jesus and something else, whatever it means to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

So, hopefully, that short collection—and this is not a comprehensive list—that short collection of these passages, what it should do is make you say, hang on a second, I need to think about this. I want to understand this. I want to know what's ultimately true, and this does seem to work in the opposite direction of what we talked about last week.

So, what do you think of all this? How do you understand these passages in light of what we talked about last week? And I'd be happy to hear both from those of you who do believe in eternal security, who do believe in the preservation of the saints, but also from any of you who don't.

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It may cause anxiety. Not to—I don't know what I think exactly, except that all the other stuff that we read gives me peace.

Yes. So it's great. I love the fact that I have a soothing voice. I don't often hear that. But yes, it absolutely could be anxiety producing. Because if I think Kelly quoted this last week as a pastor that Sloop and I were both deeply influenced by Tommy Nelson. And he said, if you can lose your salvation, you will lose your salvation. In fact, you probably already have.

And so, if this is not secure, if I am not locked up, if I'm not hidden in him and secure in him, then we should be anxious. It's frightening. And maybe there's good cause for this anxiety. The presence of anxiety is not a suggestion that it's false, but it does mean there's a lot at stake here. It matters that we get this right. And I appreciate your humility to say like, I don't know, this is actually complicated. I think this is very complicated.

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It's like, I can sit here and give the academic answer. I know I can recite what I actually even accept and believe, but I feel like I'm perpetually trapped in some kind of M.C. Escher sketch where I walk out here and I end up right back in here. It's like, I'm not supposed to do this, but I'm supposed to do this. But if you do this, then you haven't done this. I don't know what to do with it. I know what I'm starting to sort of coalesce and refine as belief, but I don't know what to do with this here, and I know what to answer the question here, but I'm not sure what to do with it out there.

I appreciate that very much. And what I hope—it is my intention to produce some measure of anxiety, because I really want to get your attention. I want you to think about this. I want you to be able to come up with a rich, robust, biblically defensible, and experientially plausible answer. Because if you don't already, you're going to meet people that, for all intents and purposes, seem to walk away. And you in your own life may have a season where you're like, I don't know if I can hold on anymore. You've suffered something that's been so painful, or so surprising. Or, perhaps as likely, you commit some relatively small sin that leads to a bigger sin, that leads to a bigger sin, and now you find yourself out here in the boonies, where you never intended to go, but where you are nevertheless. And what do we do with that?

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I mean, I appreciate these scriptures. And I guess what I'm seeing as a common theme in them is a call to self-awareness, like self-reflection. And that in our journey is part of what allows us to be able to submit to the Holy Spirit. We can't know we need to surrender something if we're not knowing that we're deviating or we're wandering away.

Yes. I love this class, but I love the idea of this person, preservation of the saints as he laid it out for us. And I'm not trying to question whether this really takes off that track. These scriptures per se, if they are not maybe just asking us to be aware. Like, we need to reflect. We can't just ride along with our journey. It's like, can you just keep on sinning? Just grace it out? It's the same concept.

Like, you can just go along with your journey and distinguish your wish, and you're preserved. Or are you supposed to really consider your own self awareness and submit to the spirit of process?

Okay, I'm going to try to repeat some of that. So what Bianca is saying is what she sees in these passages is chiefly a call to be self aware. She's not seeing these as necessarily contradicting the front page or the rest of the document, but rather saying, listen, if we're saved, then it's gonna work. If we're in him, it's gonna make a change and we should be mindful of that and conscious of that.

So it's not so much frightening her that she's not saved, and also not safe, but that is pointing out to her what it means to be saved and what's gonna call her into, so that we could be mindful if we become, because if we take for granted all that we have in Christ, the consequences of that are grave. Is that a fair recap?

Yeah, I'm waiting for the "but I'm wrong" statement from you.

But I mean—no, no Bianca, no. I think that's actually—I'm not gonna say that you're wrong. I don't think that you are wrong. So I think that's great.

Gil?

I think one thing that I wrestle with is I tend to lean more towards preservation of the saints, but I also wonder—it's kind of that whole thing of, okay, by God's need to be just and we have like, what you said about the pastor saying, if we're gonna lose our salvation we already have, then with the preservation of the saints that no matter what happens, we are in his hands—then how does God balance that with the need of justice? If we're going to continue to disobey, how does that work with God's justice and the need to be a just God? I guess is my question.

Okay, so I'm not sure I can exactly make that concise. You're asking the question, how does perseverance of the saints play out if God saves someone and they're safe, but they continue to sin and God doesn't punish them, how is that just?

When you say it like that, it doesn't sound exactly what I wanted to ask, but—

Okay, well then do this. I know what it is, but I don't know. Well, okay. I feel like it's already pretty confusing, and I'm not sure that's gonna advance the clarity that I'm trying to bring. So hold on to that. We might be able to come back to it, or if your thoughts congeal on that a little bit more, then maybe we can revisit.

Understanding Hebrews on Perseverance

Alright, so here's what I think the New Testament teaches and how you can best understand this. Believe it or not, the best place if you really wanna understand this is the book of Hebrews. And the reason I say "believe it or not" is that most people that have studied this issue would say that Hebrews is the thorniest place, the most difficult place to go.

In fact, if I wanted to deceive you into believing that we do not have security, that perseverance of the saints is not true, I would take you to Hebrews, and it wouldn't be that hard. Right? I think properly understood, Hebrews is making my case. But it's very easy to see how it could be misconstrued to make the opposite case. So let me show you this.

Hebrews six is the bull's eye, but I will say this. Look at Hebrews three:

But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house, and we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. — Hebrews 3

This is probably the—if I wanted to teach that you could lose your salvation, Hebrews six would be my bull's eye. This is where that side goes, and it's obvious to see why.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again, and subjecting him to public disgrace. — Hebrews 6:4-6

Not only does Hebrews six seem to say that you can lose your salvation, but really, that if you do, you can't get it back. Right? This is probably the scariest passage in the New Testament on this thing.

Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it, that produces a crop useful for those for whom it is farmed receives a blessing of God. But a land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed and in the end it will be burned. — Hebrews 6

Alright. Now, people that wanna defend eternal security or that wanna defend the preservation of the saints, often feel that they have the burden to explain away Hebrews six.

I wanna suggest to you that it is never a good idea to explain away any of the scriptures. And I have zero interest in explaining Hebrews six away. But I have enormous interest in explaining it. I don't want this to go away. I don't want you to say, "Look at this, it means nothing, ignore it." I want you to say, "Look at this, stare at this, it means something." And it's very important that we get it right.

Never explain away the Scriptures. Understand it. Dig deep.

The Wilderness Metaphor in Hebrews

The metaphor that permeates the book of Hebrews—the whole book of Hebrews is essentially situated in the wilderness period of Israel. So the author of the book of Hebrews sees life like this: There once was Egypt and it sucked. We were in bondage. Everything was terrible. It was miserable. And then we were set free from Egypt. And someday, we're gonna cross the river. We're gonna be in the promised land and it's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be a land flowing with milk and honey and dig copper out of the hills. It's gonna be unbelievably great. Right?

There was Egypt and there's gonna be the promised land, but in between the two is forty years in the wilderness. They didn't jump out of Egypt, skip over into the promised land. They spent forty years right here. And over and over and over again in the book of Hebrews, he points back to the time of the wilderness. And he says things like, "Their bodies fell in the desert." He's warning them, there were a lot of people that left Egypt, but who did not make it into the promised land. They died in the desert.

And what the book of Hebrews is saying is, "Y'all, this is the desert. We are living in the desert. And some of the people who live in the desert never make it in." That is what Hebrews is about. Well, that's not all it's about, but that is one of the primary driving motifs of it—is that we live here in the wilderness and not everybody makes it in.

Some of those that left Egypt were just along for the ride. They were just coming with the community, but they were never really in love with Yahweh. Yeah, they hated Egypt. There was that. But they didn't really love the promised land. And more to the point, they didn't love the promise giver. And their bodies fell in the desert.

And the book of Hebrews is filled with warnings to those who live in the wilderness, but might be phonies that merely wanted to get out of Egypt. Listen, if you wanna make it all the way in, if you wanna come into the Promised Land, if you wanna cross that river and have all the joy that was purchased for you—while you're here in the wilderness, you better make sure that your love, your hope, your joy is set on Yahweh. Because if not, you and the rest of the phonies like you will be left behind. That is the message of Hebrews.

Understanding Hebrews 6:4-6

So far so good? Then he says this. With all that in your mind, I want you to hear this. When you read Hebrews six, especially that first paragraph starting at verse four, what you are probably hearing is whoever wrote Hebrews saying, "If you're definitely a Christian as identified by these four or five or six categories."

Right? So you probably hear it like this:

It's impossible for those who have once been enlightened—well, that means to be a Christian, to have your mind opened up and it all—you know, that means to be elect or to be called—who have tasted the heavenly gift—like, come and see that the Lord is good. You've tasted him. You're eating him. You're feasting. You're John sixing. Who have shared in the Holy Spirit—okay, I'm filled with the spirit. I'm indwelled by the spirit. I'm yielded to him. I'm a Christian. Who've tasted the goodness of the word of God—that's because I'm a Christian. I'm a Bible reader. I love this book. I'm like, Jeremiah says, when your words came, I ate them.

And the powers—what you probably hear him say there is, "If you're a Christian, if you're a Christian, if you're a Christian, if you're a Christian"—he's giving you markers that this person is definitely a Christian.

All of that is wrong. Everything I just said is false.

What he is saying, what he is giving here, is markers of the wilderness. Every one of those phrases is a direct line back to the book of Numbers.

What he is saying here: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened." That is an homage to the pillar of light—you know, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire? Those people were illuminated by the presence of God. You might be among those that are in the community, that are seeing this happen. You're being lit up by this.

"Those who have tasted the heavenly gift"—this is probably the entry point. This is maybe the easiest one to see. What is that talking about? It is the manna. If you are among those who in that forty-year journey were eating this bread that came from heaven, it doesn't mean that you're really his. It means that you got access to the food. Right?

If you've tasted the heavenly gift, you probably hear the phrase and think that means if you're a Christian, but it's not. What it means is if you are of the wider community, right, if you are in this setting. Okay? Next one, if you have shared in the Holy Spirit—same thing. When Moses is leading the people out, he's like, "I don't wanna go unless one condition is met." Do you remember the only reason that Moses is willing to lead the people through the wilderness? Unless God's presence goes with me. Moses said, "I don't wanna go unless your presence goes with me." What this is an allusion to here—those who have shared in the Holy Spirit—is you may be among the community that gets to witness this, that gets to be around him because he is here in your presence.

Next one: those who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. That time in the wilderness was not only full of sand and sorrow and difficulty, but water came out of rocks. Bread came out of heaven. God, by his word, sustained the people. And what the author of Hebrews is saying is, listen, if you're in the room, if you're part of the community, if you are partaking, you're hearing this stuff, and you're eating the bread, and you get to be there and the thing is lit up, it doesn't mean that you are in him. It simply means you're hanging out with people who are.

The Urgent Call: Are You In or Just Going Along?

And the urgent call of the book of Hebrews is make sure that you're in him. Are you just in a club? Are you just going along? Or have you been converted? Has your heart been changed? Are you just doing this because of what your culture expects? What your family expects? What some cute girl expects? Or has this worked for you? Has this landed for you?

Have you ever gotten to the point where you've looked at your self-righteousness, all the times you pat yourself on the back, what a good little girl you are, and you've realized it's worthless. It's garbage. I don't get any points. Have you ever taken a moment to look at all of your unrighteousness? And realize the things that make your heart sing that are unworthy. The way that you love worthy things too little and unworthy things too much. Have you ever looked at all of that and said, "I wish I weren't the way I am. I'm weary of myself. I'm tired of how quickly I revert to the same old habits." Have you ever really abandoned both your self-righteousness and your unrighteousness and said, "I have no hope apart from you"?

The author of Hebrews is saying that is what works. And if you are genuinely in him, and you're not just going along with the crowd—you're a little subculture crowd, you just grew up surrounded by these little evangelicals, or these little Catholics, or this little Lutheran camp, whatever it is—were you just going along? Are you just in the wilderness? Or is your heart set on the promise?

All through the book of Hebrews, the whole book is filled with warning language. And the ultimate warning is not that you can lose your salvation, but that you might not ever had it because you're just one of the phonies. Now the good news, the great news of the gospel is that phonies can become real Christians. It's a real thing that happens. Jesus talks about this. He talks about weeds and wheat. And the beauty of the gospel is that we don't—it is not our job to weed the garden and pull up. We're too stupid. We cannot do it. We're just not that smart. The good news is that God in his mercy converts weeds into wheat. So we never walk through and say, "You can stay, you're gone. You can stay, you're gone." We don't play that game. Come. But while you're here, you and you and you and you should be asking the question: Am I in him? Is my hope set on him? Or am I just here for the popcorn?

The parable of the four soils reinforces this idea. The writer of Hebrews was speaking of that parable Jesus gave. The whole point of the parable of the four soils is examine yourself. You may not genuinely be the fruit of the fourth soil. The land that drinks in the rest of what he's saying is like, you guys, the blessings are falling on you. If you're in this community, in this particular community, hopefully what you're experiencing is worship that can lift your heart. Teaching that will clarify your understanding. Community that provides comfort and solace and fun and intimacy.

There's a whole bunch of benefits that we mean to give you when you come here, and they're here for you whether you're a Christian or not. But if it doesn't ultimately drive you into a posture of repentance, if it doesn't principally make you quick to apologize when you realize you're being an idiot, if it doesn't actually make you love him more all the time and yourself less—even though that's often a photo finish—he said, well, it's like rain falling on bad land. And we don't want that.

But now, after he says all that, listen to what he says. All these things, all these markers of the wilderness—you're part of the club, but it doesn't mean you're in him. Then he turns to his audience and says this: "Even though we speak like this, dear friends—which is to say, even though everything I'm saying is terrifying, even though it sounds scary and mean and bad and harsh—even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case. Things that accompany salvation."

What he's saying is, I want you to ask the question: Are you really saved? Are you really safe? Are you really in him? Have you abandoned all else to cling to him? And then his answer is: because I think you have. And if you have, you're saved. If you have, you're safe. He's not saying you can lose it. He's saying, make sure you got it.

And then he says: "God is not unjust. He won't forget your work. You may be here beating yourself up because you were stupid last night, you still haven't apologized to your wife about it. Whatever it is. He's like, no, hang on. Calm down. Zoom out. He won't forget your work and the love that you've shown him as you helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show the same diligence to the very end in order to make your hope sure. We don't want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience, inherit what has been promised."

What he is saying here is, you're in the wilderness, but you're faithfully present in the wilderness. And what we expect for you is that you're gonna make it into the Promised Land. You will not be like those whose bodies fell in the desert. You will make it. You will be in him. Make sure that you do.

Grace in the Wilderness

Gil is asking the question: if the ultimate purpose of grace is to transfer us from slavery in Egypt to the Promised Land, is it still a grace to be invited out of Egypt, and even if we're just simply here in the wilderness? And the answer is absolutely. Whatever mercy we are shown is just that. It's a mercy, and it's a grace. And it is a mercy and a grace that leads us to this.

This is what Paul works out. Go to Romans 9. Much of Paul's understanding of how salvation works is in the context of his frustration about how many bodies fall in the wilderness—in particular, how many Israelite bodies fall in the wilderness. People sometimes think of Romans like it's this logical, legal, lockstep case, and it is. It's incredibly coherent. But the engine that drives the book of Romans is Paul's deep emotional angst over lost Jews.

What is completely driving him out of his mind is everywhere he goes. He goes into the synagogue and preaches the gospel, and a whole bunch of Jews are like, nah, not interested. Don't want him. Throw rocks at him. A couple of Jews believe. And then a bunch of Gentiles are like, woah, woah, woah. Could we? Can we have that? So everywhere he goes, he's trying to save Jews. He ends up saving Gentiles, and he rejoices about that. But he's so discouraged at how few Israelites are coming to Christ. It's a massive theme in the book of Romans.

It is literally why the book of Acts was written—to explain how do we get from a Jewish community in Acts 1 to a majority Gentile church in Acts 28? It is a massively important question. And in Romans 9, I'm finally getting back to my point here with you, Gil.

In Romans 9, Paul says this:

I am speaking the truth in Christ. I am not lying. My conscience bears witness to me in the Holy Spirit. For I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. — Romans 9:1-3

Here's how it goes. Verse 3:

I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. — Romans 9:3

And then he says this, which is really to your question:

Theirs is the adoption of sons. Theirs is the divine glory. Theirs are the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised. — Romans 9:4-5

He's rehearsing all the tremendous advantages that a Jew has. And he's like, "Oh my gosh. How is it not sufficient? How is this not enough that it would overcome the rebellious heart?" He's going to go on to answer it, and his answer is ultimately going to be election. But he's working through this.

And in a similar way, being freed from Egypt was an enormous gift. For you, it could be growing up in a believing home was an enormous gift. Being sent off to some Christian camp was an enormous gift. Some kid knocking on your door when you're in college to share the four spiritual laws with you was an enormous gift. And you might be negligent with that gift. It was a grace, it is a kindness. Every time you've heard the gospel, living in the United States with 23 billion Bibles laying around and a church every 50 yards and Christian radio and Christian public—you live in a sea of gifts. But you just might be negligent with all the grace that has been shown to you. You might have decided, "This is boring. I got something better I want to do. I don't really need it."

You may have been invited out of Egypt, but you're just living in the wilderness. And the book of Hebrews, and really the whole New Testament says, "You guys, don't die in the desert. Why perish? Believe the gospel and make it home."

Make sense? If there's any problem in the way that Christians tend to teach this, I think it's that we think we went from Egypt to the Promised Land. It's boring. But there is a wilderness period, and you're living in it. Now, the Promised Land is heaven. It's the resurrection. It's the new world. It's not conversion. You can be converted in the wilderness. You cannot be converted in the wilderness. What he's saying is, be converted. Believe. Trust. You might have become a Christian the moment you got let out of Egypt. That's great. Stay. Walk with him. You're secure. He's got you in his hand. It might be you got invited out and you're still figuring it out and you look like you're a Christian, but you're not. Finish the game. Walk in him. Be hidden in him. And if so, at the end of the day, he will raise you from the dead to live in a world of infinite and increasing joy. That is the biblical framing of how this works.

Here's what Peter says, that last verse here:

Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall. — 2 Peter 1:10

That is Peter's way of saying, here in the wilderness, make sure you're in him. Make sure that you are not tempted to become so congratulatory about how wise and brilliant you are. Rather, depend on him, yield to him, make sure that you're in him, so that you'll have him forever.

That's quite a lot. We've got about six minutes. Questions? Comments? Daniel?

Daniel: Back to Hebrews 6. Yeah. I am perplexed still by verse 6. I mean, your explanation of the wilderness and so on is plausible, but then I get to verse 6 and it's talking about how they have fallen away, and it's impossible to restore them again to repentance, which would presume they were there—which would seem to be equivalent with a state of salvation. And so inherent to me in that verse 6 is this big question of, okay, it's saying something has been lost that cannot be restored. Like, how does that fit with this just being a wilderness experience?

Tim: Okay. So just to repeat this. Daniel is in Hebrews 6, which is the wilderness description. But he's puzzled by verse 6. And honestly, everybody is puzzled by verse 6, including me. Because what it's not teaching is that you can fall away, but that if you fall away, you can't be brought back. And I don't actually know any person who thinks there are—I know people, Christians—I don't think you need to believe in eternal security to be eternally safe, right? So I think this is an important question, but it's not a function of orthodoxy.

If you're mistaken about this, I think there are genuinely saved and safe Christians who think you can lose your salvation. But I don't think that I know any who think that if you do, keep walking, because you're gone forever, right? Which would seem to be the plain meaning of this passage. Maybe there's somebody that teaches that, but I think they would all say is that, yeah, if you're backsliding, repent again and come back. Right? So the logic of this passage is very, very troubling.

So if we try to trace it out, I don't think I'm going to satisfy you, because I don't think I have a real solid grasp on this myself. But his logic is this: if they fall away, they can't be brought back to repentance. Why? Because to their loss, they are crucifying the Son of God all over again, and subjecting him to public disgrace.

The way that you are thinking about that, I think parallels the way that I'm thinking about that, and it doesn't make sense in that paradigm. Because how could repenting—if repentance means what you and I normally think that it means, and you're a sinner and then you get stupid and then you realize you're being stupid, you go back and repent—do we not all feel like Jesus rejoices in that? That there's more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than 99 who don't? So what is he saying?

Because I don't think that it can mean that, it leaves me wanting to be very humble about asserting what it does mean. I don't understand that piece of it. What would it mean to crucify the Son of God all over again?

The closest I can get—and I don't even like my own answer here—but the closest I can get is like, if I have considered that the Son of God's death is inconsequential, worthy of being trod upon, worthy of being mocked, and I say, "Yeah, I'm a Christian, but it's never really true," then it could be that I'm putting my heart in a posture where even if the Son of God were to die and rise from the dead, it wouldn't work. Because I'm acting like it doesn't really matter. The first time I proved that it doesn't really matter, I said, "Well, if the literal death of God is not sufficient to capture your heart, then how could the literal death of God actually do anything for you?" We'd have to do something else because what you're doing doesn't really work.

That might not be right. I don't know. This is super puzzling to me. And I would happily yield the floor if somebody feels like, "Oh, no, no, it's obvious. It means this." I don't know how to really make sense of the logic here.

Could it not be that simple—that you're trying to put the fear in people since you've already lost the Jews, and you're gaining more Gentiles? Maybe they were trying to scare them and say, "You can't do it again. He's already dead. Go for you." Well, okay. So Kathy's saying, is it just that he's trying to scare us? I think to a certain extent, he is trying to scare us. The warning passages are meant to alert us, to awaken us, to flee the wrath of God. Right? So that is true.

But he's not trying to scare us by saying things that are false. Right? He's trying to scare the Jews to follow since he's lost so many of them. Yes. But again, he's trying to frighten. I do think that the New Testament does sometimes use fear as a motivation to believe, but only fear about things that are true. The New Testament's never going to say, like bad parenting—you know, you'll lie to your kid and be like, "If you don't get over here right now, then you're not eating dinner for a week." Right? It's not true. You're just being intense by lying. And everybody knows you're going to feed your kid dinner tomorrow night regardless, right? I don't think the New Testament does that. We're not making false threats. Whatever it means is true. But I think it's very puzzling to untwist it.

Bianca, you might land us here. My thought is if this is the wilderness picture, there were people in the wilderness that were caught doing wrong. Pretty sure their repentance wasn't sincere. "Oh, I'm sorry." Like, when you say you're sorry you're not really sorry, you're just sorry you got caught. Yes. So the idea here could be potentially that this repentance isn't like true repentance that we're talking about where you submit yourself to Christ and you're following him. It's like this false, pretentious repentance, which occurred a lot in the wilderness. Like, "You guys are doing it wrong again." "Oh, we're sorry." But you're not really sorry. You're just sorry you got caught.

Right? That is the image of the wilderness, how we dig into what repentance was in the wilderness.

Okay. Bianca's comment—this is great. And actually, Bianca's doing a better job of answering Dan's question. I was kind of glancing off Dan's question to say what I wanted to say. You're getting back to the actual question he asked: if we get moved back to repentance, does that not imply we were repenting, and therefore Christians? And maybe the whole idea that this wilderness language is false?

I think, Bianca, what you remind me of is that passage. Is it Second Corinthians 7, maybe? Where God talks about godly sorrow leads to genuine repentance? There is certainly a version of repentance that is, "I'm repenting that I got caught," not "I'm repenting that I broke your heart," right?

Could it be that he is referring—he, to the heart of Dan's question—that being brought back to repentance is not a marker of conversion? It looks like a marker of conversion, but in fact, it's just a marker of trying to avoid some negative consequence, being a part of the thing. That could be true. That is a simpler answer and a better answer than mine. I'm making it muddier by saying this verse baffles me in general.

Okay. I hate ending on a note of confusion, but we have to end. And so here's what we're going to do: I do believe that we are safe, that we will persevere because He will preserve us. But I think, while we live here in the middle zone, I want you to think about your world. You've been led out of Egypt. You're not yet in the Promised Land. You live in the wilderness. While you're here, make your calling and election sure. Make sure that you really are abandoning everything in what you want to put your hope, and that you're trusting in Christ. And if you do, if you have, you are safe. You are secure. Remain in Him. Abide in Him. You will not be cut off like a branch and thrown into the fire, because you're in Him. You're not just a phony, right?

Next week, we're going to start working through your questions. So if it takes a week, great. If it takes six weeks, great. We're going to do whatever it takes to answer your questions, and then we'll move on to the next phase of our study. So be sure to send me anything you want. Capture it now if you want to, so that we can get to your questions. And we're going to promote the most unhappy, the most disagreeable, the most frustrated, the most concerned—you come to the front of the line. Okay? All right. We'll see you.