Sunday School | Fear the One Who Can Destroy Body and Soul

Introduction

Alright, you guys are doing great. Hey, good morning everybody. How you doing? Everybody good? It's been a few weeks since we were together. Thanks for coming back despite the break for we were off for Christmas, we were off for New Year's, and now we're back at it.

If you're new here or if you're kind of starting up in January to come to this class, what we've been doing for, I don't know, a month, maybe six weeks, something like that, is a series called Stuff Jesus Said. What we did was about, you know, when we started the series, I put up a thing on Menti and invited you guys to just submit questions. What are the things that Jesus said that you've got questions about? We decided we'd look at the things that are most interesting to you or maybe the most important things that Jesus said, which is tough because everything he said is important, the things that are the most puzzling, and we're kind of working through them.

Right now, what we've been doing is working chiefly through your requested questions, and I'm just prioritizing the things that got the most votes, the things that were most interesting to you. I do need to apologize because I use this system Menti, and Menti changes the numbers. So once the day ended, you can't get back in. So I'd thought about it ahead of time, I would have had a computer up here. I'll give you guys another opportunity to jump on and to vote or ask other questions. But it's been a really fun time to discuss our questions.

The Question and Its Background

Today's question, we're probably I can't imagine we're gonna get past the single question here. So let me read you this question from the list. It says, Did Jesus give a case for annihilationism and not eternal conscious torment when he said, quote, Fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna? Okay? I wanna answer that question, and we're gonna probably spend a little hour on it, but before I answer the question, I think I need to set it up because some of those words might not make sense to you.

So here's kind of the background behind this question, and if you wanna make your way to the passage that they're asking about, it's from Matthew chapter 10. I think it's verse 28. I might be wrong, but it's close to 28 if I'm wrong.

In the early church, in the earliest days, the first several centuries of the church, there was a universal understanding that there was a final judgment at the end of all things. It's a little bit different from what we have a tendency to think of. You've heard me talk about this more on the heaven side than on the hell side, but we have a tendency in, like, American Christianity to think that when you die if you're a Christian, when you die, you go to heaven and live happily ever after. And I have sought to really blow that up as much as I can. What's in fact what is a more accurate statement than when Christians die, they go to heaven and live happily ever after? How would you improve upon that? They go to sleep?

Okay, this is possibly true. Although I do think that there's a consciousness between well, I think they were unconscious and awake, but I'll unpack that a little bit more. But what's wrong with that general paradigm of there's life and then there's afterlife in heaven? Have I not done this enough that this is obvious? Because I feel like I beat this to death all the time. Chris? Second What's that? He's going to make a new creation. Yes, the Second Coming.

So really, you guys, this is a huge thing. So for Christians, we will die and something will happen. We'll come back to that in a second. But the good stuff is not going to heaven when we die. The good stuff is kind of the three R's: the return of Christ, the resurrection from the dead, meaning your resurrection from the dead, and the restoration of all things.

We are not and this is so richly Biblical, but somehow is lost. We are not looking forward to dying and going to heaven. We are looking forward to Jesus coming back, the return of Christ, the resurrection from the dead, and the restoration of all things. That's the good stuff. That's what we're looking forward to.

Okay? Well, in a similar way, we have a tendency to think that all the bad people, when they die, they go to hell, They stay there forever in a place of eternal consciousness trauma. That's the default view. In the same way that we have a tendency to make a two-stage reality, but in fact, it's a three-stage reality, what will happen, what the Scriptures teach will happen for the lost is that they will die, something will happen in this intermediate state that parallels our intermediate state in heaven, and then there will be at the return of Christ.

At the same time, when Jesus comes back, that's when the final judgment will be. And the primary metaphor for what happens in that moment is the people are thrown into the lake of fire. That's language coming out of Revelation 20. We'll get to this in a minute. What happens in the immediate interim time when somebody dies is not our purpose today. Right? We're not talking about life in heaven. We're talking about the resurrection and the world to come. We're not talking about this intermediate state after a person dies, but what happens at the final judgment.

Does this make sense so far? So I want you to think of, like, the world to come and there's really two stages. There's this life, then there's this intermediate state before Christ returns, and then there's the final state after the judgment of all things. And we're just talking about like phase three this morning. So far so good? You with me? Okay. Now, where it gets interesting is that in the earliest centuries of the Church, the question of what happens in phase three had an enormous amount of ambiguity to it. There were three primary positions about what will happen in the final assessment, the final judgment.

The three things you and you will have heard perhaps of some of these, but maybe not all of them, would be this. Number one, that there will be universal salvation. Okay? This is the sometimes it's called universalism. Sometimes it's called universal salvation. And what we're talking about, just so we're clear, is a Christian universal salvation. Some believe that everybody's saved because nobody's really lost in the first place.

Christian universalism has big name early Christian leaders that taught and believed this, and they would point to a number of passages in Scripture, and not just them, but throughout the centuries. We have a tendency to not see those because Christian universalism is very much outside of our tradition.

Okay? It's not at all very well, maybe some of you, but it's very unlikely that you've ever heard that or heard it spoken of in respectful tones. But there are probably 15 to 20 passages of Scripture that a Christian universalist would point to. They're things like this. Jesus says in John 12, When I am lifted up, referring to his crucifixion, I will draw all men to myself.

They would point to that and say, What do you think that means? They would look at Romans five where it says that just as one act, one transgression was condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

First Corinthians 15 says that in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. And they will point to a number of passages that they'll see, this is good and pleases God our savior. He wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

And so the Christian Universalists, what they see the lake of fire to be is ultimately a place that purifies, that there will be a final judgment, but it is often the case that God's manner, God's mode of being, is to bring judgment, and judgment is followed by a restoration.

So they believe they would see there's a final judgment followed by a restoration of all, that ultimately all persons will be saved. So that's the position of Christian Universalism. Okay? So far so good? Now. Does that judgment also go to the Holy?

Wait, hang on. Say that again. Does the judgment that you said that they go through also go with those who accepted Christ's handicapped?

Okay, Robin is asking the question, is that judgment that the Christian universalists see, do Christians also go through that? Generally speaking, they would say no to that. What they would argue is that Christ is the only savior for the whole world, and you must come under his blood, under his grace, under his forgiveness. And you could do that in this life, which is what we would recommend you do, but if you miss it, there will be subsequent opportunities.

Okay? And that's essentially the position of Christian Universalism. And this was taught in the early church. Also taught in the early church is the position that you are far more familiar with, which generally known as eternal conscious torment.

What that view holds is the one again, I barely probably don't need to explain it too much because it's almost certainly the predominant view in your mind is that this is not a fire that purifies, but it's a fire that torments.

That what awaits the wicked, what awaits the lost after the resurrection and return to Christ is to be kept alive for all eternity in a state of unending anguish.

Not only is this the view that you think of as hell, but you probably didn't even know there's any other that is the very definition of hell, right? And this view was absolutely taught in the earliest centuries of the church and then carried on through and I'll talk about how that gets carried on.

So you've got Christian universalism. You've got eternal conscious torment. And if you want to jot these down, there are probably I gave you a handful of passages for universalism. There's probably six passages that would be the ground seating of doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

They are, if you want to jot these down, Matthew 25, it's where Jesus talks about eternal punishment and eternal fire.

Mark nine, which is the passage you might recognize the language about that you don't want to go to Gehenna where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.

Luke 16 is the story of the rich man and Lazarus who is in agony in this fire and wants wants a drop of water on his tongue, Luke 16.

Second Thessalonians one, it's where Paul talks about uses the phrase of eternal destruction, second Thessalonians one.

And then two passages in Revelation, Revelation 14 and Revelation 20. Revelation 14 is the passage that talks about the smoke of their torment will rise forever, And then Revelation 20 is literally, it's the lake of fire passage.

And those six passages have generally been the ground seating of doctrine of eternal conscious torment. There are others that you might also associate with that. There are eight times that Jesus talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth, but curiously, in none of them is there any kind of description of time. And so eternal conscious torment has maybe the most dominant fact of that is the eternality of that.

But those six are the places that people tend to build the doctrine of eternal conscious torment on. So far so good? Okay.

So it's a fire that refines, was taught in the first centuries of the Church. It is a fire that torments, was taught in the first centuries of the Church. And the third position, which this question is actually about, is a doctrine of annihilation.

And what that basically means is that it's a fire that kills. That when people are cast into a lava pit, what happens there is exactly what you would expect. They die, they perish, and they are no more. And that view, again, was taught throughout the early centuries of the church.

One of the passages that would incline people to believe this would be Matthew 10. If you guys didn't already find your way there, I'll just read you the passage that has kind of prompted this whole conversation.

So if you go to Matthew 10, Jesus says this, we'll start in verse 26. So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed or hidden that will not be made known.

What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight, and what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny, yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your father, and even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid. You're worth more than many sparrows.

In the midst of this language, Jesus is describing people that fear man, and he says, you know, you shouldn't just fear man because all that a human being can do is kill your body. You should instead fear the one who can kill, destroy, apollumi, both body and soul in hell.

And the question is, doesn't it sound there that Jesus is affirming the doctrine of annihilationism rather than eternal conscious torment?

So far so good? Is the room quieter than it normally is? Am I imagining that? It feels that way to me. Okay?

Jesus' Words and the Doctrine of Annihilationism

So my answer to that specific question is yes, it does seem that Jesus is affirming the doctrine of annihilationism. So let me double click on what that means. We're gonna unpack a little bit more of what these three views holds. I'm gonna explain it to you first, and then I'm gonna give you a little bit of a history lesson about how we got from where we started to where we are today.

Make sense? Okay. The doctrine of annihilationism is sometimes called the doctrine of conditional immortality or conditionalism. Conditionalism, conditional immortality, and annihilationism all are just different labels for the same thing. And the primary understanding of those that are conditionalists or annihilationists or believe in conditional immortality is simply this: Human beings are not immortal creatures.

Okay? That we are not immortal creatures. Now, as I say that to you, it's also very, very likely that you have heard your whole life that human beings are fundamentally immortal creatures. That there's a part of you, like, your body's going to die, but try as we might, we'll never kill your soul. Right? That we have a fundamentally durable there's a durable aspect to us, namely our soul, and that when your body dies, two things. Number one, your soul lives on.

And number two, it can't not live on. Does that make sense? So I think we can, I think we should affirm very richly that when the body dies, the soul lives on? Everything else in the Scriptures affirms this. But it's different to say that when we die, the soul lives on than it is to say when we die, the soul when the body dies, the soul lives on, and the soul can't die. That is a far larger claim and a more difficult claim to prove.

Conditional people that believe in conditional immortality would say, well, yeah, you're having a hard time proving it because it's not true. And there's nowhere in the scriptures that that's ever affirmed. Okay? So pause. First, Scott, I'll give you a chance to let some others jump in.

This is all where I'm not sure how I'm not sure. Well, okay. I don't think the there is a debate about cremation, but I don't know that it touches on this. So just to briefly address that, historically, Jews and Christians always honored bodies because we believe in a resurrection from the dead. Right? And so we always we bury, like, in in the East, they would burn their bodies because it's just returning back to the earth, and it was never all that significant. We believe that the material world is of enormous significance, and the body should be honored, so we bury the dead. But we would all say, if somebody dies in a fire, if their body is lost in the bottom of the sea, God can raise anybody from the dead. So I'm not I'm not aware of where the creation or cremation excuse me, where the cremation debate touches in on this.

But rather, the question here is, can the soul ever die? And does the scripture affirm that it can't? Alright? So let me just do a real quick poll. Were you taught growing up that people are fundamentally immortal? The human soul cannot die. Okay. This pervasive and common.

Okay. What would be your Biblical basis for that? What are the texts or passages that support the claim that human beings are unkillable things? Yeah, Lily? What did you say?

Though he die yet he lives? Okay, yep, that's for a believer. Yep, that's right. Can you make the case that the human person has a durable, unkillable aspect which we call the soul. Yeah, Michael first.

Marriage. So there has to be, there's a uniqueness there that says maybe the gender piece is not there or marriage is not there, but there's an individualism that still exists, and that's where Jesus was talking.

Okay, great. So Michael is pointing out there's a number of passages. We can look at lots of different passages that say that there is life after death. Right? So there's this life, right? So you guys might maybe you know this, that there were two primary kind of Jewish schools of thought in Jesus' day, the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

And one of the differences between them is the Sadducees did not believe that there was life after death. This is all there is, and that's it. And the Pharisees believed there would be a resurrection and continuing world. Right? And Jesus sided, although he was always John, gonna be a minute, buddy. I'll come to you in a second. Jesus was often at odds with the Pharisees, but he agreed with them on this point and specifically rebuked the Sadducees.

So Jesus absolutely affirms that there is the possibility for the righteous to live in the world to come. Right? But I wanna I wanna parse that out in your mind from is saying that you can live in the that some will live in the world to come is that the same thing as saying that no one in the world to come can die because you are fundamental either there's two options.

Either you're fundamentally immortal, you're an unkillable thing. Try as we might, we could throw you in a volcano and you're gonna survive, right? Or that God sustains you in life. What we're asking is can you make the case for immortality, not just for Christians, but for all persons? That's the question on the table.

Quig, did you wanna say something to Mount Of Transfiguration, as Moses and Elijah, after they died, resurrection hadn't happened. Now, that didn't speak to every person, but it speaks to two people.

That's right. Yes. And again, so we could make a long list of instances of some persons living after death. That one's pre resurrection, right? You know what Quigg's talking about, the transfiguration. But can we go beyond that to say, can you find any text that says human beings have an immortal soul?

We take it for granted that people have an immortal soul. Can you prove it? Michael? Well, sure. So some folks will point so we can look at that. So if you go to Genesis, when makes when man is made in God's own image, some would say some have made I think I I might be drawing an inference from what you said here, but when God makes man, it says in chapter one twenty six, 28, God said, Genesis one twenty six, Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the And sometimes the observation is made that because God made man in his image and because God is immortal, we must ipso facto be immortal. Okay? What do you think of that line of reasoning? Do wanna you answer that question? Kelly or something? Okay.

What do you think of that what do you think of that line? We we're god is immortal. We're made in god's image. Therefore, we are immortal. How does that how do you deal with that? You vote no. Why not, Quig? Well, let me license it. God's omniscient. Therefore, we are omniscient. Right. That's exactly right. And what generally we would say is there are we we reflect him in an incomplete way. So God is omniscient, and we know some stuff. God is omnipotent, and we can, like, write with a pencil. You know? God is God is ever living, and we are alive, that we exist in a in a diminished sense of him. Right? Okay.

Fetz, what do you think of that? You you wanna do something new on this? Just to kinda continue the Genesis thing. Because I I think that I'm gonna bite here. I'll I'll probably end up being wrong, but Happens. Most most people think if they have this elementary knowledge of the fall that death entered into the world at the fall. And that if that didn't happen, would Adam and Eve live forever?

And probably is that probably is most people think that there is an eternity to the initial creation. Yes. So is it and and I would say if we're looking at Genesis, those first three chapters of Genesis, it's not entirely clear what would have happened, but what is clear is what did happen. Right? And so Genesis, the Genesis account of the fall actually speaks to this.

If you go to Genesis three twenty two, let's see this. God says, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever. So what's happening there is God is specifically saying, We cannot let you become an immortal creature. We won't permit it. And so we're going to ban you from the garden. Okay? So that's interesting. Brad? But the righteous into eternal life. Yes. Okay.

And so what do you conclude what do you conclude from that? They're both eternal purity. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Great. Okay. So so we're we're jumping out of we're out of Genesis track. And so the question we're trying to ask is, does the Bible affirm the immortality of human beings?

That's the question. The way that a conditionalist would phrase this thing is like, the first question you've got to understand is, are we the sort of thing that cannot die? Because if we're the sort of thing that cannot die, then that rules out annihilationism. Right? It can't be the case because you can't kill the thing that can't die. And so it's gonna have to either be eternal conscious torment or it's going to be universalism. These are your options.

And I'm asking you the question, do you have any texts that suggest that man can't die? And Brad points us to Matthew 25. Now, you might recall when I said that there are essentially six passages that the case for eternal conscious torment is based on. Matthew 25 was one of those six. Okay?

However, it has been my experience that when you look at these six texts that support eternal conscious torment, I I would fully grant that each one on first blush seems supportive of eternal conscious torment, but they tend to wither under scrutiny. Okay? So let me tell you what think is going on here in Matthew 25. In Matthew 25, there is a comparison and there is a contrast. Well, you guys want to turn to it so you all can see it. Go to Matthew 25.

And it's the very end of the chapter, and it says this, verse 46, Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

What is the comparison point in verse 46? What is being said that it's same same? Punishments and life. No, that's the contrast. What's the comparison first? What's being compared is the eternality of two options. So option A, gonna last forever. Option B, gonna last forever. Now some people will debate that, and I disagree with them. I think some people will say that the word for eternal doesn't reference an infinite sequence of moments. It references the age to come. And that's grammatically accurate, or it can be grammatically accurate. I

But don't think it's accurate here. Think that what you're observing, Brad, is that this one lasts forever and that one lasts forever. And I think that's accurate. But it's not only comparing things, it's also contrasting things. And what is the contrast? Punishment Punishment and life. Okay. Now just stay with me on this. If one issue is being alive forever, that's one option, and the other one is being contrasted with that, what does the other one not likely include? Being alive. Do you understand that?

So when he talks about eternal life and eternal punishment, in that moment Jesus isn't saying anything about the nature of the punishment, simply that it lasts forever. And it could be that the punishment is that you're being tormented forever, but the punishment could be, and perhaps is more reasonably, that you're not alive forever. That the punishment to which Jesus is referring there is eternal death, which just happens to be language that the Bible uses over and over again in description of this.

So, yes, it lasts forever. They both last forever. What are they? One of them is being alive. One of them is something else. Okay? Does that make sense? Okay. Couple of hands. Yep.

I guess if God is a God of grace and mercy And justice. Right? And I think and I'm thinking of my loved ones who are not faithful. Mhmm. Certainly, I would pray that God would end their life completely rather than have them suffer in torment forever. Sure.

Selfish thought. Well, yeah, it's not an unreasonable thought. So the statement is if God is a God of grace and mercy, then I would one whether he is or isn't, I wish that people that I love weren't kept alive for a 100,000,000,000 millennia, at which point not not one second has elapsed of their endless and infinite anguish. Yes? Yes. However, however, it doesn't matter what you want. Sincerely, sincerely, it doesn't we do not make decisions about what we wish were true.

There are lots of things that I wish were true that are not true. Okay? The question is what does the text say? We must be. It is absolutely imperative that we be in all questions, a people of the book, that what God has revealed in his word is the thing that we will believe.

But it is reasonable that we would find the scriptures to be coherent. It is reasonable that we would say, God, whatever you are, you are at all times. You are always just. You are always merciful. And as we seek to interpret the Scriptures, we want to do our best that we can to really make sense of the text.

Conclusion

This is there are so many hands up right now. So I'm gonna turn it this way because I haven't looked at Rachel for a while. So, Rachel? Yes. To answer your main questions, what about Revelation 20:1-5?

Okay. So Rachel's there's no way that you guys heard that. So Rachel's looking at Revelation 21 where God says he's making all things new, first of all. And what's the implication you're pulling out of that? That he's not remaking everything. He's not He's everything new rather than remaking everything Therefore souls. Oh, oh, oh, you're saying okay. Okay. So Rachel Rachel's going back to the question of can we find any place that says that souls are immortal?

And the fact that okay, your reasoning is the fact that God says he's making everything new suggests I don't know I don't follow that logic. The fact that he's making everything new rather than remaking everything suggests that souls can't die. But I don't there's a bridge out for me in that. I don't get that. Souls have never died. Okay. Okay, have never and I think that is true. I I think your soul will never die because you are hidden in Christ and you will be kept alive. I think that is true. The question is, could those that are in Christ well, tell me this, do you think those that are not in Christ will take part in that restoration? No.

Okay. I'm going to say no, but if we grant for the moment that they don't, which would be the position of two of the three, of the eternal conscious torment and the annihilationist, they would say those that are apart from Christ don't take part in the in the restoration of all things, then we still have an answer if their souls can die or if they are consigned to endless misery. Right? That's the question we're trying.

Making all things new, just all Christian things. Yes. Okay. So Brad just said, so they're not making all things new, just all Christian things new. And I would so a universalist would say, no, it's all things. All means all. Right? And they're gonna jump on that. And they're gonna say, God's purpose is to win, and His victory is seen in His complete restoration of all things.

They love universalists, by their very nature, love the word all, and they would say, that what you're seeing here in Revelation 21 is the final mercy after the seemed like it was final but wasn't really final judgment. Right? And maybe they're right, but I don't think they are, but maybe they are, and that's how they would take

Okay, sure. If you stay in Revelation 21 and go down to verse eight, it says, But as for the cowardly to face, lest the destructible as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, blah blah blah. Their portion will be in the lake that burns Yes. Okay. So what I think what Sherry's saying is that is maybe if I'm taking you in the wrong direction, we're doing this in an incoherent manner. So Revelation I've told you this a 100 times highly, highly, highly metaphorical. It's image based. And the answer key for Revelation is what? The Old Testament. So we take images from the Old Testament and we say, What do they mean? Usually, you gotta flip to the back of the book. You gotta flip early in the book. What does this image mean? What are you drawing? Where are getting your language of a lake of fire from? Where are you getting your language of all sorts of things? But every once in a while, John throws us a bone, and he use a very specific formula in which he says, X is Y. And the formula for X is Y is X is the image, Y is the literal meaning. He does it several times. He says, The fine linens are Do you know? Do you know what that one is? He sees all these people dressed in fine linens, and then you're like, What are you talking about? Why are they wearing linens? And he says, Fine linens are the righteous acts of the saints. Right? So the metaphor is the literal meaning. So some would look Revelation and see that lake of fire and say, It's a lake of fire and people are in it and they're tormented, this kind of answers the question, and we should be done here. Eternal conscious torment, check. Others will look and say, Well, hang on a second. We want to be very, very cautious ever taking Revelation literally. And in fact, John helps us not to take it literally because he says the lake of fire is the second death, not the second prolonged period of suffering and torment, but it's place of death.

So that would be one of those six passages. Like, we looked at Matthew 25, and I think Matthew 25, upon scrutiny there's actually two things in Matthew 25, but one of them, eternal life and eternal punishment. Be careful if you're smuggling eternal punishment. If you're smuggling ongoing torment into punishment, maybe the punishment is death. In Revelation 20, you see a lake of fire, and you think that means ongoing torment. Well, hang on a second because John says it's actually a place of death, which is an interesting phenomenon.

Now, let me just pause for a second because I promised John I was gonna call on him, like, twenty minutes ago, and I wanna go back. So, John, what did you wanna say, bro? Somebody else already went where I was born. Okay. I don't have my glasses on. I can tell that's so funny. I can really Jamie Lee, is that you? Okay. Go. He didn't text me last week because he called me Caroline last week. I'm gonna have to put my glasses on so I can actually see now. There you are. It's good.

Second Peter chapter two, because you might know that two Peter two and Jude are parallels. Thought for if you read Jude and you read two Peter two, it'll be very obvious to you that one of them is ripping off the other. It's extremely plagiarism. Okay? Just watch it. And listen to how this verse in two Peter's mouth, listen to the language here. Two Peter chapter two verse let's see. I never know verses.

Verse six. Second Peter chapter two verse six. Listen to this. If God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. Mine says condemn them to be fixed. Yeah. The e I'll flip to ESV. ESV says, by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes, he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly. So according to Peter, what is going to happen to the ungodly? He will condemn them to extinction. Okay?

So this is all the case that is made on the side of the conditionalists, people that believe in conditional mortality, that if you can't find a text I'll come to you one second if you can't find a passage or passages that say that people can't die in the world to come, and then you can stack up like 40 passages that say that they do, perhaps that has some bearing in what we ought to believe.

Okay? Caroline? It's Jay. Okay. I don't have my glasses on. I can tell that's so funny. I can really Jamie Lee, is that you? Okay. Go. He didn't text me last week because he called me Caroline last week. I'm gonna have to put my glasses on so I can actually see now. There you are. It's good.

Second Peter chapter three, verse seven. Just supports this very well. Second Peter three, verse seven. Go loud. Yeah. Yeah. You're actually doing a great job being loud. Okay. It says, by the same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. That's right.

Now, here's the thing. Let's pause on this. So the word here destruction, this is a word that shows up over and over again regarding the loss. Let me check this one here. Yeah. So if you guys happen to have your little Greek tools, this word is the word for destruction and destroy is apolumi, and it shows up over and over and over again. That what will happen to the wicked is they will be destroyed.

But what we do with that you you've seen this word used in reference to the lost countless times, but you necessarily have always interpreted that to mean a process of destroying that never succeeds, but that is always ongoing. We could, I mean, I could show you so many places. Paul says their destiny is destruction. Right? Their goddess is stomach, their destiny is destruction. We could look at Jesus saying, Broad is the road that leads or narrows the road that leads to life, narrows the road that leads to destruction. We could show you the wages of sin is Everything. We could stack them up and they've never penetrated your mind because you've already been conditioned to believe that perishing, dying, and being destroyed don't mean perishing, don't mean dying, and don't mean being destroyed. Fundamentally, this is across the board that you've been trained. So we could we could, like, we could stack them up and show you over and over and over again how many places this occurs. But if we're immortal creatures, and by the way, if we are immortal creatures, then the ECT guys or the Universalist guys are the only game in town because you can't kill that which cannot be killed. Right?

So which which is the ultimate answer on this? Okay. Who have I not called on yet? Go for it. The with the last the rich man and Lazarus. Rich man and Lazarus. Yep. No. But you I'll let you go, Rob, and then you jump in. Yeah. Rich man and Lazarus. Rich man and Lazarus, it talks about that they they both die. Yep. And the rich man is in, here it is, in Hades being tormented. He lifts up his eyes. He sees Abraham afar off. One of the things I've heard is part of the torment. It is not all of it, but it's the separation from God that you can see. Through it that the ones that love Christ have. Yeah.

Okay. So let me real quick. The problem with Luke Luke 16 on this question is that it's not talking about this question. So do you remember we said there are three phases? There's this life, there's this intermediate state between resurrection, between our death and the resurrection, and then there's the final state. Luke 16 is distinctly, unambiguously, absolutely about phase two and not about phase three. We know that it's about phase two because his brothers are still alive. He's like, send somebody to my brothers. So whatever's happening in Luke 16 is not attempting to address the question of the final judgment. So I'd be very, very slow to draw conclusions out of what's that? But there's torture. There is. Absolutely. What is described in Luke 16 is miserable. There's a lot more going on there that's worth explaining, what do you mean? That we won't do now, but I will just simply say that it's not addressing phase three. There's other questions about it, but yes.

Okay. And we're so short on time, I want to give you a chance to jump in. Okay. So this is a question. So make I'll restate that. So first Corinthians 15 makes it very clear that at the return of Christ, the dead will be raised. You die perishable, you'll be raised imperishable. You die mortal, you'll be raised immortal. There's no question that this is that is true for Christians. Christians are raised immortal. We are given immortality in Christ. Right? Where at one Timothy says that God alone is immortal, God alone is immortal. He gives. He confers immortality upon Christians. Then the secondary question is, okay, well, what's the non Christian version of that? Is it nothing? Are they also made immortal? Or if they're not, then they must remain mortal and therefore killable once again. And that what what Jesus meant in Matthew 10 is that he can destroy both body and soul in hell. That means kind of what it sounds like it means. Yeah. That they would be putting on immortality too just so they could be immortalized forever. Yes, that's right. So if here's the thing, if God confers immortality on mortal beings, on non Christian mortal beings, it is so that he can inflict agony upon them forever and ever and ever. That's what's happening there. Okay. Now, we've to stop because we've to go to church. Here's what I want to leave I'll leave you with this. Almost everyone in the whole world that you love and respect and admire in Christ believes in eternal conscious torment.

Okay? What I'm suggesting you do the study on is say, I want to study all of this. I want to understand God's word. I want to know what it says. I want to bend my knee to it. If you believe in eternal conscious torment, you are in incredibly good company because ever since Augustine essentially it's Augustine in the third century he believed that people were immortal. He was a Platonist. Plato believed that people were immortal. He brought his immortality to the thing. And once you believe that people are immortal, the rest of it has to happen.

If you go through a process and you conclude the Scriptures don't teach that people are immortal, then you may find yourself uncomfortably outside the mainstream. Okay? There are some. John Stott is probably the most well respected maybe certainly the most well respected Anglican, maybe the most well respected person who was an annihilationist. John Stott was a conditionalist. It was a shock to the world because he's probably one of the most respected theologians in the world. But it was kind of a big deal when he came out as a conditionalist. Right?

There are others that teach on this. I would just encourage you, like, in all things, be Berean. Study the Scriptures. Look at go to Mark nine. Go to Matthew 25. Go to Luke 16. Go to two Thessalonians. Study all the texts. I'll tell you the two best proponents that teach on eternal conscious torment are Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson. You could read their books, Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson. The guys that are probably the most articulate on conditionalism probably Preston Sprinkle. If you guys know Preston Sprinkle's work, he's fantastic. His stuff is really very interesting. You can read him. If you want to study universalism, one of the greatest theologians in the world that teaches universalism is a guy named David Bentley Hart. He's an orthodox, like big O orthodox believer. He's pretty chippy, though. His book is called That All Shall Be Saved, and I just think he's kind of acerbic in his tone. But those would be some of the places you could go if you wanna do more study and research on this, and I'd really encourage you to do this. It's matter it it is worth knowing what God's word said and to bend the knee to it. Alright? So we'll stop there. Let you guys go to church. We'll see.